Glenn
Greetings, everyone, Glenn Daniels with Touch Stone Publishers
Today we are going to discuss sales skills and techniques when it comes to Leadership. Great. I’m so excited to have as our first guest as we reprise our podcast today, David Suson
David
Hey, thank you, Glenn, for having me. I so appreciate it.
Glenn
I’m pleased to have known you for a few years. So right off the bat, what is the nonprofit organization’s benefit for tuning in today? What does a High-Performance Sales Expert bring to the table?
David
As the sales performance expert, what I do is I take my 25 plus years of sales and sales leadership experience, and I sell to help other organizations and individuals to be able to actually implement the kind of skills and techniques that they learn. And the reason I call it a Sales Performance is it truly is about how do I perform. It’s not just for me, I have read a book on sales and then more sales books, I have read about Leadership and then more Leadership books, and then I still don’t know it. The reality is like, we don’t decide if others are gonna share what they learn and use as part of who we want to be. This information is not just probably one book reading or a one-day workshop or one-day seminar. So, what I learned is that in order to create sustainable change, it really takes work and a plan. You’re going to enjoy this hand-holding and feedback over time. My best analogy of this is golf. I could probably teach you how to swing the golf club in a day, you know, the grip, the stance, etc. But that doesn’t mean you’re going to be on the PGA Tour in a week, or two or three, right? It is learning is one thing, implementing, doing and mastering as another, so as a Sales Performance Coach, I take that 25 plus years of experience, and I coach and mentor and teach and train organizations and individuals how to do it. And then I actually help them implement it and strategize within their world. So, it’s the real world. It’s not just, you know, here’s a great idea. Oh, that was neat. Yeah, I attended a training once. But I’m not implementing it. Right. Oh, yeah. Dr. Golf lesson. That’s a good golf lesson once. Yeah, how’s has your game really changed. That’s what happens. Right? That’s not what we want. So that’s what I do.
Glenn
Well, David, what can a leader take away from your work? Just being a sales performance expert is not the whole process of leadership, but what can a leader accomplish? If I’m gonna lead my company and I’m bringing in this sales performance expert. Many people will say, well, we don’t sell, but what can you bring to the table for the Leadership in the room listening right now?
So, it’s the real world. It’s not just, you know, here’s a great idea. Oh, that was neat. Yeah, I attended a training once.
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David
You know, that’s such a great question. Because people say, Well, you know, we’re not a sales organization where this is relative, okay, here’s the way I see it, we are always selling our ideas. And I don’t mean selling like, and no offense to use car salespeople or door to door, but that’s not what I mean. It’s we’re trying to get people to buy into our ideas. So, I always think people use sales as a bad word. Because many times our personal consumer experience hasn’t been positive. I look at sales as purely helping people get what they already want or need. And usually, that is to solve a problem or challenge or achieve some greater gain. So, I know a lot of who you work with. Glenn, you’ve shared with me are executives and nonprofits. So, what are they selling? A vision?
Glenn
Yeah, right there.
David
They will if they’re trying to get people to buy into a vision. If it was politics, it’s buying into their candidate or buying into supporting a candidate. If it’s, if it’s some other organization, they may actually be selling services. So, let’s say we’re selling a vision, it is meeting the need of a potential supporter, donor, or someone in need, and what is their need? Well, maybe I feel good by giving. Maybe I feel strongly about a cause. Maybe I personally have had challenges, and I know your organization is in alignment. Now. It’s just helping touch on those feelings and emotions and desires of someone and elevating it so that they realize that what you have to offer is a better use of my time. Time, effort, or money, because I could have my time, effort money somewhere else. It’s just helping me or helping someone else understand what’s different about your organization? Why should I put time, effort, and money toward you versus somewhere else? Okay,
get people to buy into a vision
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Glenn
I want to back up just a second here because you did come upon something that often happens. Salespeople are viewed as the used car dealers in those types of things. And you have a process, and you discussed that in your book 180 Degree Selling. And I think when I deal with salespeople, I’m not liking it too much. That, to me that makes your job a little bit harder. Why do you do it?
David
Why do I do it? That’s a great question. You know the funniest thing is, I’m kind of an accidental sales expert. I was an introvert as a young kid, I was a math-science geek, I got my degree in Electrical and Computer Engineering. And I kind of fell into it. I actually wanted to be a kind of technical liaison between a company and its clients. And I ended up accidentally in a way I interviewed with IBM, and I got hired at IBM, and I thought, you know, what a great opportunity to push myself because this is not what I would normally do. And I was at a point in my life right after college where I wanted personal change. So, I went into sales. And, and I did, I was very fortunate at IBM, that IBM was not like traditional sales of other businesses. They were truly consultants. And one of the things that they taught me is that you really have to understand your client and your client’s, which is there for is to solve a problem. So, I started studying more and more and more about sales. And what I realized is I was always a problem solver. I mean, as an engineer, I’m a problem solver. When I took a different frame or different view of selling, not that I was selling, but I was solving a problem for an organization, I was solving a problem. So, I sold to nonprofits, I sold to other types of businesses, and it was just solving a problem. And if they didn’t have a problem, it was understanding their business so well that I knew what the issues probably were, even though they weren’t always top of mind. What I learned is that if I just learned to ask smart questions, and I’m not afraid to ask smart questions, it elevates the need and the pain, and it makes them realize that you know what, you’re right. We have that problem all the time. I wasn’t thinking about it at the moment. But you’re right. That is an ongoing headache we’ve had. We had no idea there was a way to solve it. And then what I do is write in on, you know, the White Stallion pony and solve the problem. I go, Well, look, I have if there was a way to solve it, is that something you’d be interested in hearing about? And they’re like, Well, absolutely. And then it was just a natural transition to solve, either solve a problem, or help them achieve a desire and a personal win or a corporate when our business when that they had, and then it was just a natural transaction, it was just a natural thing. So it wasn’t. I didn’t look at it as selling. And so, what happened is moving forward, I realized that, in order for me to differentiate myself in my approach, I couldn’t continue to appear like all the other salespeople, because then people do pigeonhole me, just like you said, Glenn, they put you in the Oh, you’re a sales rep. So, I said, I got to be different. So, I learned how to appear, approach, and work with clients differently. And I had one gentleman that which is very typical of a clientele of mine, who said to me, you know, Dave, I have worked for 20 years with salespeople. I have never worked with someone like you. You are so different from everyone else. And I continue to hear that over and over, and I asked him what they meant. I realized that I really took 180 degrees, swing, and 180-degree approach from the way most salespeople which meant I didn’t come across like a salesperson. Sure, I have excitement enthusiasm with you on the call. But with a client, I learned to adapt to best communicate the way they needed to be communicated to so I’m not over the top.
You know, this aggressive, assertive, outgoing person, I’m, I’m like a doctor. I’m just solving their pain. And so, I appear differently than most. I realized that I was always contrary to what I read in books and contrary to other salespeople, and it made me stand out. And so, from that, I realized, you know, I kind of do 180 degrees. I eventually coined that as my approaches, 180-Degree Selling, 180-Degree Leadership, and 180-Degree Customer Service. Because, in my leadership, my selling service, it’s contrary to what everyone else does. And I realized it fit my personality because that describes me since I was a kid.
I was always contrary. I always wanted to take a different path. And I just, I don’t know why. I think it’s because I was never really comfortable being a follower. And when I was young, I was not necessarily a leader. When I was young, I wasn’t a leader. I just wasn’t a follower. It wasn’t until I did more personal development and some things, I write about in my book that I started learning how to really be a leader. And I still continued to have that contrary approach. And it has served me well. And as I train and coach hundreds, if not 1000s of people, I speak to 1000s of people all over the US and internationally. It resonates that this being having this contrary approach to what’s typical,
Glenn
I have read your book, and I want to push in a little bit of a different direction, though, because the book is full of skills and techniques, “Balls,” that in itself when you break this all down, you’re looking at skills and techniques. But something I’ve noticed that I think that maybe I want to bring out to everybody here. Your passion. Yeah, I think your passion pushes you to go past the used car salesman passion. How do you apply that passion? How would I? How will you teach the leaders who are listening to apply that passion to their vision to their mission so that their operating managers and their senior vice presidents can all follow through? How would you use that passion?
David
Good, man, what a great question. First of all, I don’t want to rag on car salesmen. I don’t, so here’s what I’ve learned about goal setting. And I know you are a goal-setting expert. What I have learned is when you are drawn towards something, it creates greater motivation. So oftentimes, people will say, I have a goal of getting so many more clients, or so many more supporters or so many more donors or X amount of dollars. The thing is, that doesn’t draw me if I’m a leader. That doesn’t necessarily excite me or pull me forward. So, what I was looking at is how do you reframe it. So, it pulls you along. So, for example, to me, to be able to impact 1000 people in a year. Or more, yeah, to be able to change a life to be able to motivate, inspire, to be able to have a light switch, turn on where someone goes, oh my gosh, I can’t believe how I’ve struggled for years to motivate my team to inspire my team or to sell or get my team to sell. And I’ve tried everything. Oh my gosh, the way you presented it, you got to the root cause you expose blind spots. Oh my gosh, that’s amazing. Like, I just got off the phone before this podcast with a client of mine. And she says, you know, I’ve done coaching and personal development my whole life. She says that what you have done has given me more confidence and drive and allowed me to be more fearless than anything I’ve ever seen or heard in my life. That is the greatest compliment I get. I live for that. I get chills when I think about it. So that motivates inspires me. So instead of saying I want 1000 clients, it’s or X amount of dollars or if I’m a leader, an executive, you know, we have financial goals, revenue goals, sales goals, whatever it is. Instead, it is what’s the mission and passion that gets me up in the morning. And for me, personally, it’s making a change and having an impact when I lead a sales team. One of the things that stand I did is we implemented consulting and technology services to impact k 12 education. And my mission was how many kids I can impact. Not how many schools, not how much money. But how many kid’s lives are we changing? Whenever we implemented in a school district, sure, it was maybe $1 million to a $5 million solutions, but 50,000 students and you’re changing their life. To answer your question to get the passion and excitement, it’s reframing. And then it’s selling that, and I hate the word selling in this context, but then it is sharing that vision, with, with the people that you want to support you. So, they buy into the excitement, passion, and mission of what you’re doing. It’s not just giving me money. It does not just make a sale. It’s, it’s Let’s change a life or solve a problem. You get the people, especially nonprofits, get the people who buy into the vision and the passion and you got to find out what floats their boat, you know, what excites them? Right? That’s what I would say,
Glenn
Well, now, I don’t want to mislead people and have people thinking that this is a motivational book in your book “Balls,” hold that up for us really quick. Yeah. It is somewhat motivational. Okay, I won’t deny that. But what it does do is bring new skills and techniques to use. Tell us a bit about some of the skills and techniques that you know. If you have a moment, tell us about the prediction system.
David
Yeah, well, let me tell you about the book and how it came about. I interviewed about 3000 top performers, Sales, Marketers, Leadership, and things like that. And what I found was some of the most successful people were not always the ones who always had the best skill. But they exhibited three core traits. And as I started noticing the traits over and over in, in leaders in salespeople in you, you know, and I boiled it down, I said, Well, what was it I said, you know, number one there, they tend to be fearless. Meaning. I’ve learned that when I teach Leadership, I teach that leaders, the best leaders, tend to be the most decisive leaders. And in order to be decisive, you got to make a decision. You got to be fearless. You can’t hem and haw. You can’t be wishy-washy. People don’t want to follow wishy-washy leaders. You have to be decisive. But to be decisive, you got to be fearless. So, I started noticing that the best salespeople are also fearless. They’re fearless in decision-making. They’re fearless in pursuing their fears and asking they’re self the right question and sharing their views. And this fearlessness pervades everything in they’re life. It’s fearless in, you know, making a decision. They’re not afraid, especially in sales, set the goal to be number one. And to test this theory, I would ask top performers, were at the beginning of the year, I would say, where do you think you’re going to be ranked at the end of the year? They go number one, ask an average performer, and say, you know, top 50%. So, I was watching what one of the examples that really made this.
Sin number two, they’re driven to be number one. And they set a goal of being number one in their organization for their team for themselves. Right. And once they set the vision to be number one, they work. They work to the level required to hit the goal. If their goal is only to be top 50%. They only work as hard as that vision. And I saw this when I was watching an interview of Olympic Olympians back in 2002. And they interviewed one skier who made the Olympic team, and they said, how do you think you’re going to do in the Olympics? He goes, I don’t know. I’m just happy to have made the team. Right. I thought that was his goal. So, we only worked as hard to do that. But a gold medalist works as hard as required to get the gold. And so, the guy that actually won the gold and the downhill skiing. And I tell the story is I’ll give you the quick abbreviated version and going into the final run downhill skiing in the Olympics. He has had such a large margin lead. All he had to do is make it down the hill and not screw up, just an average time, and he would have meddled. But he went all-out “Balls” to the wall, as they say. And he almost wiped out. He ended up not wiping out, and he ends up winning the gold, and they said in the interview why did you risk everything. And he says this. I didn’t come here to just get a medal. I came here to get the gold. So, he played to win. And so, they play “Balls” to the wall is what I call it. The third thing I noticed in interviewing 1000s of people is especially in sales, which I saw when I was the Sales Manager. And even early in my career, oftentimes, salespeople drop the ball. You know, I would ask my sales reps, hey, so what’s the status of that deal? And there, you know, they look at you like a deer in the headlights. And they’re like, oh, I gave him a proposal last week, I haven’t heard back from them. And I’m like, What do you mean, you haven’t heard back from them? Well, they haven’t called me back. They said they would call me. I haven’t heard from you like you’re reactive. When I look at the top performers, they’re proactive. They don’t forget to make the call that they’re always on top of their schedule. They get done more in a day than most. And part of what drives them to get more done is decisiveness leads to more action. But then they’re on top of it, whether, they have a better memory or a better schedule, so they don’t drop “Balls”. I named the book “Balls”, the three secrets of success are top performers have “Balls”.
David
They’re fearless. Number two, they play “Balls””oot cause guy. So what I do as a performance expert is working with people to get to the root cause of what holds you back from being more motivated. What holds you back from being decisive? What holds you back from, from, you know, fear from making a cold call making a donor call, following up with someone was asking the tough questions. That’s why I call it “Balls”.
Glenn
I want to ask you before you go on into some of the techniques that you’re sharing of those three, do you find one of those has more of a driving force, more of a root cause, and which one is more significant? The problem? Would you say?
David
Yeah, awesome question. And everything. I have found with all of the clients that I coach, it always comes down to fearlessness and having “Balls”. And the funniest thing is, when I first start working with someone, they say, I’m fearless. And then we get into dialogue, you know, overtime the weeks and, and I realize they think they’re fearless. They might be fearless jumping out of an airplane. They might be fearless, you know, traveling. They’re not 100% fearless. They’re, they have decisiveness that issues. They have something that holds them back in their life. And almost always comes down to, to this fearlessness. And I almost hate to call it fearlessness because some people automatically go, Oh, I’m fearless. But it’s kind of the broader umbrella.
An example of this is when I used to have a problem with when I was young. I younger, I didn’t realize that I had an issue with it. But you know, I would have analysis paralysis, right, and overthink stuff. Well, that’s because of fear. It’s fear of making the wrong decision. Or, you know, Glenn, you say, Hey, I’m going to be in Denver, and what wreck restaurant would you recommend? And I’d say, oh, there’s this great restaurant, you know, and I would start describing the restaurant, but then I would always give myself an out if you didn’t like it because I would hate to recommend it. And then you go, Dave, what a horrible recommendation, the food sucked. And it was overly priced. And parking was 20 bucks just to get there. And I had to valet, and it’s white cloth table, and I was in shorts. And you didn’t tell me that. And the problem is because I was so afraid of what you might think of me are so afraid that I would look stupid or dumb or not smart or that I lacked integrity. Because my God, if I had integrity, I would never tell you to go to that restaurant. So the problem is, I would hem and haw about my recommendation. And what I realized is when you’re fearless, you are more decisive. You’re not wishy-washy. So what you do is you go Hey, Glen, great restaurant, go here. And then you come back, and you say, you know, it really sucked. I didn’t like it. And I would say I’m so sorry.
Glenn
Dave, I say that I’m taking what you’re saying. I’m applying to one of my clients right now, where they’re having a problem with their employees. Okay. Nonprofits, as a rule, can’t pay as much as the public sector can. In some cases, I mean, they have in some cases, yeah. Like government finance packets, and that’s how they can do. They’re having an issue with actually filling what they call the parking lot with potential candidates. So if this person leaves, they have another candidate ready to go. And part of that comes down to sales. I’m sharing this with you because when you said what the number one issue, that’s their issue because they want to interview people to not give them the job, maybe have to call them later on and be told, well, no, I took another job. What’s the fear behind that? There shouldn’t be a fear behind that. They should just fill that parking lot. Yeah, I’m sorry. Go ahead.
David
No, absolutely. You always have to have you know, teach Leadership, and always have your following candidates in line. And one of the things that I always think is, you know, people who struggle to get good candidates, just look at companies like Starbucks or Google, right? They have people or Southwest Airlines, right, a couple examples. They have 1000s of applications when there’s a job. Why? Because they attract people. And so the first thing I would say is, is your company attracting the talent you want. And you say, I don’t know how to do that. Well, that’s where leadership true leadership comes in. It’s learning how to motivate, inspire, and change the morale and the vision of an organization. First of all, your number one sales people, your employees, just like the companies I mentioned, where they go, God, I love working here, it’s the greatest, greatest. And now everyone else is like, I want to work for a great boss, I wish I had a great boss, I don’t have a great boss. I wish I had a boss that loved me and cared for me. So that’s number one. You get people so excited. Internally first, just like at Southwest or virgin, right? Read some of the stuff from Richard Branson, he talks about, you know, your customer doesn’t come first your employees come.
First, you change the perspective. So you increase the motivation and the morale of your employees, they become your best salespeople. So number two, they people start this starts, people see this. When you begin to interview others, you have a desire to work at your organization. First of all, the mission, the passion, but the employees, and you become the greatest place to work. And people are willing to forego big salaries, just like you said, for a better place to work. And how do I know this? Interviewing 3000 people? Right, right all the time. There are people I met that are like, you know, you can make more somewhere else. I took this guy interview this guy. He was late 20s. I said, What do you do? And he worked in it. And I said so. I said, how’s you know, how’s the career? The pay goes, you know, it’s good. He goes, if I change jobs, he goes, I could probably bump my salary by 20 grand, and I got 20 grand. I go, that’s significant. It goes. Yeah.
Except I love my boss. Yeah, he supports me. Yeah, I love the mission. I love what we’re doing. And I said, and what I realized after I interviewed 1000s of people, that was the number one reason people don’t change shops is they love their boss. So what am I telling you, as a leader listening to this right now? It’s learning how to how to get your people to want to follow you in battle, no matter what. And once they get excited, they’re, you’re willing, you can attract people, even if your pay is not as competitive as somewhere else. If they love coming to work, I was thinking this way, Glenn, if you let’s say you work an average eight to five job, right, right. Right, that’s nine hours. Plus the amount of time you’re commuting and preparing to go to work an hour, plus the commute home. So now we’re roughly 11 hours of your day. 11 hours of your day are committed to the career. How much of your time is awake during the day committed to you and your life, your family?
Glenn
Half that?
David
Yep, more time at work and career. So why not make it the greatest 11 hours you can? And the better organizations know how to do this. People like you people, right? Know how to coach and mentor these teams to get them excited. So, they create this environment that everyone wants to work in. So the answer to the question is that you fill the parking lot by first becoming somewhere where people want to work, right? And the buzz, even if you’re a small group, it doesn’t matter. But you create this buzz, and it’s doable. It starts at the top, though. This doesn’t start at the bottom. No, it starts at the top. And it starts with a mindset first and a mind shift that we can and will. And then there’s a payoff by learning to do this. And then it’s starting to backfill these positions and getting knowing you know that where your next best hire is going to be. I worked for an organization, and they told managers 1/3 of their time should be spent recruiting.
Yes, sir. Yes. You were constantly looking for a quality fact my wife years ago, she got hired. She was very young in her career. She was a manager selling fine jewelry. And gentleman walked in to buy it, you know, super, super expensive, ridiculous expensive watch. Yeah. And he ended up being a manager in a Fortune 500 company, and he says, I want you to become one. And so she ended up eventually leaving that job going to work for him. And it shifted the direction of her career. So he is an example of he was always he was a talent scout. He was always looking for talent.
Glenn
I get that
David
A quick example.
Glenn
Yeah, please, please.
David
Sorry. One more I was it was kind of funny to me. I had met I interviewed many years ago with a company called SAP big corporation. Yeah. And the gentleman in the interview said, he goes, Dave, I love you. But he goes, I’m not going to hire you. I said, why he says, You’re not right for this job? You should be at a higher level. You should be at more of an executive leadership than what this is. I think this job is below you. And he said, as much as I love you, I’d love to hire you, I don’t have another role for you. But I just think this would, you wouldn’t be happy, this would be a mistake. And I believe I loved his honesty. So I get a call. Four years later, five years later, from him. Okay, he’s now working for a company called salesforce.com. And living in San Francisco corporate headquarters, he calls me up, and he says, I don’t know if you remember me, but I interviewed you four or five years ago. And if you remember, I didn’t have an opportunity for you those I want you to come work for.
Glenn
All because he had, he was fearless enough to say, You’re not right now.
David
As that talent scout, you build. You build your book, you build your list of quality candidates, and you keep an eye out for rock stars. And you keep a book, you own a list, whether it’s LinkedIn, an Excel spreadsheet, a piece of paper, and you stay in touch with these people on a regular basis, or you post, or you do whatever you have to do. And they’re your next hire. And then you, that’s how you start to build it, but they’re not going to come work for you or your organization. If you don’t attract quality and a stepping stone down, you need to be an organization where the buzz is this is the greatest place to work. And it’s not about money. It’s not about the money. It’s about the passion, the vision, the mission, and how well you sell it.
Glenn
See now, one thing I don’t want our listeners to forget, although we’re kind of we’re getting close on time here. But wanted to kind of understand this. I’ve known you for a while. And I know that the passion and everything you do lies beneath that. But you’re really about skills and techniques like we are at our company is about techniques and “Balls” shares techniques. So, I must say, for example, there’s a gentleman who tried to fill up his parking lot, kind of afraid to do it doesn’t know doesn’t want to be let down badly by people who can’t hire them, or doesn’t want to just do it because he’s fearful of other people’s reactions. You have created a system inside “Balls”, a says, here’s how you do this. Here’s each step of the way. Here’s a model to get this done. I want to make sure that everybody understands that techniques drive successful passion. Tell us about your favorite tech. We’re getting close to time. So, I want to ask you one last question, though, because, you know, we are dealing with leaders in a nonprofit organization. What is the biggest challenge a leader has in driving this performance? And, yeah, we’ve been avoiding this word cells, but we’re actually talking about driving the performance of cells driving performance of visit with them the most significant challenges they have?
David
Well, I would say, if it’s getting their employees or their folks to do it, it’s really taking the time to understand what people’s challenges and the roadblocks are. And what I find from my coaching clients that I coach, and mentor is that they come to me because they don’t feel they can go to their boss or leadership team. And they can’t go to them and say, I’ve got an issue, I’ve got to hang up. I don’t know what I’m doing. I’m clueless. And so, what I realize because I keep hearing that from everyone. Many of my coaching clients will invest out of their own pocket 1000s of dollars to get coaching. And they won’t even tell their boss they’re doing it. In fact, they’ve told me, they’re like, I don’t want my boss to know. And I’m like, why not? And it’s because they’re not. They feel like it’s admitting that they don’t know. And so, what is the biggest thing that holds leaders back is having the open dialog and not treating your people like their idiots when they don’t know how to do something, but helping them and coaching them and investing in them. That my favorite example of this that I think a lot of people can relate to is business. For example, with you, Glenn, I don’t know what your head trash is. I don’t know. It’s not visible. And you can kind of hide it. And, you know, use, you know, maybe your performance isn’t up to par. It could be twice what it is, but something is holding you back, but you’re not going to admit it, or it’s a blind spot to you. And you’re getting by, and you’re telling me you’re getting the work done, and you’re just saying, but it takes longer than, it takes two weeks and I’m like, I don’t know any better, maybe and I go, okay. I don’t realize that if I really had the right employee or well trained, well-coached, it wouldn’t be two weeks. It would be two days, sorry. But the problem is having the employee having the comfort level to go to the management. So, my analogy on this is football. When a quarterback is struggling, the coach knows it.
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